Browns The 2025 hunt for a QB
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The_QCT
CLE 🏙 ➡️ ATL 🍑
I mean, any QB taken after the 1st Round was missed by pretty much the entire league. Prescott, for instance, was passed over 4 times by some teams. Seems a little ridiculous to criticize specifically the Browns for that. We should have drafted Brady too...
Redrafts are fun exercises, but really aren't reality and do nothing to improve the process. The process to select Myles was fine. He was deemed generational, is generational, and will be in the HOF.
Mahomes was much more of a risk, why no one in 2017 would have made a different decision and why we haven't been criticized for it. Good process, HOF selection, kudos to the Chiefs for finding the best latter on. Reminds me of Hakeem Olajuwon and Michael Jordan.
We should've taken Watson at 12 though. That would have made it a franchise-altering draft. Oh well... I guess we got Watson later.
That's fine mental gymnastics that still does not negate the facts.
The_QCT
CLE 🏙 ➡️ ATL 🍑
We had a generational Myles for 8 years and have 1 playoff win to show for it. Nothing matters until you have the QB. You keep taking swings until you have one. Then worry about the 'generational players'.
The_QCT
CLE 🏙 ➡️ ATL 🍑
I was asked this question by a Browns fan and found it interesting.
Question: "Do you think Shedeur Sanders is a better NFL prospect at Quarterback, than Baker Mayfield?"
Obviously, many Browns fans just can’t seem to let go of Baker Mayfield - like an ex they’re still obsessing over. They remain trapped in their homo-erotic fantasies of Baker, unable to move on no matter what.
My initial, knee-jerk reaction was yes - Sanders is the better NFL prospect. But to be sure, I took a deeper dive into Baker Mayfield’s 2017 season at Oklahoma to compare it to Sanders’ 2024 season at Colorado. After a thorough analysis (which I can post upon request), the conclusion was clear and undeniable: Sanders is the better NFL prospect with a higher ceiling.
Question: "Do you think Shedeur Sanders is a better NFL prospect at Quarterback, than Baker Mayfield?"
Obviously, many Browns fans just can’t seem to let go of Baker Mayfield - like an ex they’re still obsessing over. They remain trapped in their homo-erotic fantasies of Baker, unable to move on no matter what.
My initial, knee-jerk reaction was yes - Sanders is the better NFL prospect. But to be sure, I took a deeper dive into Baker Mayfield’s 2017 season at Oklahoma to compare it to Sanders’ 2024 season at Colorado. After a thorough analysis (which I can post upon request), the conclusion was clear and undeniable: Sanders is the better NFL prospect with a higher ceiling.
Martin Eden
Well-known member
The only homo-erotic fantasies here on this board are from the people who defend the trade by implying it was Baker's fault and the Browns were justified in their decision.
Baker's gone. That goose is cooked. There's a difference in defending him and his play while he was our QB and where he is now as a player and not letting him go.
And I'll never forgive the Browns for this bonehead move. I have never been more optimistic about our future than before the 2021 season. Baker got hurt and the Browns front office shit itself. Period. Pushed us back 4 years, at least.
As far as Baker and Sanders go, I'd say they're pretty close coming out of college. Baker played more big games. Baker has a better arm, but I think Sanders' arm is underrated. But what do those on this board who claim they never thought Baker was good enough think?
Baker's gone. That goose is cooked. There's a difference in defending him and his play while he was our QB and where he is now as a player and not letting him go.
And I'll never forgive the Browns for this bonehead move. I have never been more optimistic about our future than before the 2021 season. Baker got hurt and the Browns front office shit itself. Period. Pushed us back 4 years, at least.
As far as Baker and Sanders go, I'd say they're pretty close coming out of college. Baker played more big games. Baker has a better arm, but I think Sanders' arm is underrated. But what do those on this board who claim they never thought Baker was good enough think?
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Masters
Well-known member
Fully agree it is not Bakers fault
- he was over drafted as the #1 pick and thus the expectations which come with it.
- he doesn't have the play to compete against or raise the level of play around him like Mahomes, Allen, Jackson, or to some extent Burrow (or Watson when he was HOU Watson(
- that QB contracts for astarter quality QB and supply of good enough for one of the 32 starter position supply is lower than the demand.
- CLE had set goals which exceeded what short and long term Baker's play could/would hinder (along with his maturity at the time).
It's not defensive of the trade to understand/accept why, NFL reality, and the AFC QB play reality CLE with Baker is most probably a stretch of .500 with some WC birth. Yes, as log suffering Browns fans just being regularly in the hunt for .500, WC, and somewhat justifiable delusions of grandeur beyond that would be nice. But if the actual goal is a sustained run of competing for division titles, AFC titles, and SB wins with or without Baker you aren't achieving them. The team, the FO, the coaches, and the league recognized that.
- he was over drafted as the #1 pick and thus the expectations which come with it.
- he doesn't have the play to compete against or raise the level of play around him like Mahomes, Allen, Jackson, or to some extent Burrow (or Watson when he was HOU Watson(
- that QB contracts for astarter quality QB and supply of good enough for one of the 32 starter position supply is lower than the demand.
- CLE had set goals which exceeded what short and long term Baker's play could/would hinder (along with his maturity at the time).
It's not defensive of the trade to understand/accept why, NFL reality, and the AFC QB play reality CLE with Baker is most probably a stretch of .500 with some WC birth. Yes, as log suffering Browns fans just being regularly in the hunt for .500, WC, and somewhat justifiable delusions of grandeur beyond that would be nice. But if the actual goal is a sustained run of competing for division titles, AFC titles, and SB wins with or without Baker you aren't achieving them. The team, the FO, the coaches, and the league recognized that.
MKO3090
Active member
I think Baker was the better prospect. Much more accomplished in a stronger collegiate program. Baker has a stronger arm, but also was noted as an accurate passer, like Sanders. Sanders is a little taller, but Baker has more muscle mass, indicating Baker is more able to withstand hits.
The better question to me is Goff v. Sanders.
The better question to me is Goff v. Sanders.
Martin Eden
Well-known member
I do think Baker is a more effective runner. Granted Sanders pretty much avoided the run all through college, which is probably a good thing. But Sanders will have to use his legs more in the NFL. I'm confident in his athleticism and toughness though.
I advise him to not try to tackle anyone ever.
Martin Eden
Well-known member
I agree with everything except that we couldn't win the division with Baker. Baker is cooking. He's gotten two OCs in a row head coaching jobs. Both rave about him. There's not a coordinator in the league that wouldn't want to coach him. All that said... he still throws too many ints.
The_QCT
CLE 🏙 ➡️ ATL 🍑
Sanders is more athletic, a better processor, more accurate, has better ball placement. If you watch his highlights, the few pounds Baker had him didn't make Baker any more able to withstand hits. Hell, Ben Boulware of Clemson knocked Baker out of the game in the Orange Bowl. But I digress....
Baker played behind the #1 OL in the nation in pass blocking efficiency with the running game that averaged 217.8 yards per game behind him....a 1000 yard rusher and CeeDee Lamb and Marquis Brown (two 1st Rd NFL Draft picks) to throw to. Because of that running game, Baker had the luxury of one of the best play action games in CFB. Safeties couldn't creep up. LB's had to hesitate. And he has a lot of deep opportunities.
Sanders had the 112th ranked OL in pass blocking efficiency with a running game that averaged 65 yards per game behind him. His leadering rusher had just over 300 yards rushing. Sanders OL was 106th in the nation in pass blocking efficiency when the defense only rushed 4. He literally had ZERO OL and ZERO running game. Defenses literally pinned their ears back and came at him constantly. LB's didn't have to hesitate and safeties just camped out deep.
Oh...and with that OL, consistant clean pockets and play action heavy game, Baker still took 2.77 seconds on average to throw the ball because he is a slower processor than Sanders. Sanders was at 2.80 seconds, largely because he was constantly have to evade pressure....which causes a longer time to throw.
Baker was sacked only 19 times...and per PFF, 11 of were Baker's fault because he held onto the ball too long. Sanders was sacked 39 times behind an OL that literally, factually and objectively, could not block.
I can do this all day....Sanders still put up comparable stats to Baker, despite having a nightmare scenario compared to Baker's dream scenario. Could you imagine if he had Baker's OL, running game and WR corp to work with? Geeze...he would have won multiple Heisman's and National championships and be the undisputed #1 pick.
Martin Eden
Well-known member
OU ran a ton of play action, deep passes with Baker. That's why his avg throw time was up there. Sanders' is up there because he had to move around so much. It's silly to say Baker is a slower processor than Sanders based on their college careers. Silly. Baker has always been a very smart QB and runs his offense on schedule almost all the time. Baker Mayfield, slow processor, fucking hilarious. But no doubt, Sanders would have been very good on those OU teams -- such a revelation! Well done.
Masters
Well-known member
Picks, fumbles, and bad decisions at bad times. Unless Jackson is hurt or the D no shows for Cincy and a Burrow led offense, CLE would struggle to consistently realistically contend for the AFC North
Masters
Well-known member
Almost some of the time, not almost all of the time.....
Martin Eden
Well-known member
So your assertion is that since it would be hard to win the AFC North because of Burrow and Lamar, we should throw away any QB that is only good and suck until we find one of the top 5 NFL QBs?
Last I checked, we regularly beat the Ravens and Bengals no matter who our QB is.
The_QCT
CLE 🏙 ➡️ ATL 🍑
It’s easy to oversimplify and say that play-action alone causes a QB to hold onto the ball longer or increases time to throw. However, that’s not always the case.
PFF identified one of Baker Mayfield’s weaknesses out of college as holding onto the ball too long, and that was an individual tendency, not offense-dependent.
But back to play-action. Baker's offense under Lincoln Riley was a quick, tempo offense and the play-action they ran wasn't simply true, under center play-action (vary rare). Riley's true play action was not from under center, but was RPO based or out of the shotgun/pistol. True, under center play action, although ran, was very rare in Riley's offense when Baker was playing QB. Very rare.
Why is this important?
RPO Play action has a much, much faster release and is typically meant to get the ball out in 1.5-2.5 seconds. There is very little 'drop back' and the routes are shorter. It's the fastest form of play-action with the shortest time to throw.
Shotgun/Pistol Play action, the QB is already in position and doesn't have to turn his back to the defense. Depending on if it's a dump off or deep shot, the ball should be out in 2-3 seconds.
Traditional, under center play-action is where the TTT is very affected by the play calling. 3-4 seconds is typical to get the ball out. This was very rarely ran in Riley's offense with Baker. Very rarely.
Sanders ran a pro-style offense. He couldn't run play action because 1) His OL was too bad and couldn't block 2) he had no running game to keep the defense honest.
Sanders also had to process defenses faster than Baker out of necessity...he didn’t have the luxury of playing behind the #1 pass-blocking offensive line in college football, as Baker did. Even with that advantage, Baker still held onto the ball too long and took 11 sacks credited to him, not his OL.
It’s easy to run an offense on time when everything around you is elite. When it’s not, quick processing and decision-making become essential.
MKO3090
Active member
Baker Mayfield can easily win a Super Bowl. Nick Foles won a Super Bowl. Joe Flacco won a Super Bowl. Eli Manning won 2. I heard this past season that Jalen Hurts wasn't that good. Now he won a Super Bowl.
Can Mayfield lead a dynasty? Probably not. Can he win A Super Bowl? Of course. We fucked up.
Can Mayfield lead a dynasty? Probably not. Can he win A Super Bowl? Of course. We fucked up.