The " Book It " thread! | Page 34 | Barking Hard

The " Book It " thread!


I guess I was lazy and didn't explore what else was available on the site. You linked the page which had data for the individual states earlier. To get from there to the one you linked a couple of days ago, you have to go to the top and click "Menu." Problem was that I was too lazy to find out what else was on the site. And it caused me more work to get the data I wanted then checking out the site would have entailed. Typical for me, unfortunately.
 
Life

Typical for me, unfortunately.
It happens to me too. this internet has soo much to read. from the life forms about I guess little ever gets read let alone understood. I think you try hard to understand this environment we live in. I feel we are a dying breed most the time lately. I see many impulse persons who are very easily herded. facts be dammed.
I appreciate You
 
https://www.9news.com.au/national/c...wn-areas/d070eb1c-90de-441d-ac17-da511c1ad551

Even in Australia as they open cases are go up. 5 weeks ago it looked like there would be no cases there by the middle of July. now their cases have doubled in the past 2 weeks. 386 active now.

Actually, according to Worldometer, they have 807 active cases, 5 in serious condition, 802 mild cases.

https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/australia/

They had 84 new cases yesterday, 69 the day before and 81 the day before that--up from 45. As recent as June 9, they had only 2 new cases. They had one death each on June 24 and June 25.

I would guess that they will be able to get a handle on it quickly. Australia is not a transportation hub. Nobody passes through Australia to get to somewhere else. However, they undoubtedly have people who travel abroad and a few visitors. So flareups can occur. My guess is that they know where the relative hot spots are and will take care of them quickly. They are now in the middle of winter and people should be mainly inside. In a way, that is bad because the virus is more contagious inside, but inside activities tend to involve people who know each other so contact tracing should be easier.
 
Worldmeters

Actually, according to Worldometer, they have 807 active cases, 5 in serious condition, 802 mild cases.

https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/australia/

They had 84 new cases yesterday, 69 the day before and 81 the day before that--up from 45. As recent as June 9, they had only 2 new cases. They had one death each on June 24 and June 25.

I would guess that they will be able to get a handle on it quickly. Australia is not a transportation hub. Nobody passes through Australia to get to somewhere else. However, they undoubtedly have people who travel abroad and a few visitors. So flareups can occur. My guess is that they know where the relative hot spots are and will take care of them quickly. They are now in the middle of winter and people should be mainly inside. In a way, that is bad because the virus is more contagious inside, but inside activities tend to involve people who know each other so contact tracing should be easier.
Worldmeters has been off on Australia for a couple of weeks now. there were about 360 or so cases that got held on too long, the Aussie site fixed it. not so with Worldmeters. https://www.covid19data.com.au/
 
Worldmeters has been off on Australia for a couple of weeks now. there were about 360 or so cases that got held on too long, the Aussie site fixed it. not so with Worldmeters. https://www.covid19data.com.au/

Thanks for the site. It shows detail including where the new cases are. The number you gave earlier was 386. Adding the 87 from yesterday the total comes to 473 not counting any who would have fallen off the list. It would appear that the 3 days previous to today averaged about 82 per day and the averages per day for the 10 days prior to that would be about 30. Just based on that, I would have supposed that the number of active cases would have been in excess of 500 at least. But perhaps they are following existing cases more closely than I would have supposed.

Also, I would have assumed that there would be some people for whom the disease will last more than 2 weeks. Do you know how long people are typically positive for the disease once they have it? I have had the impression it is about 2 weeks. Is that correct?

Regardless, I would tend to be more concerned about the number of new cases which are currently running in the mid-80s per day. I think that is a better indication of where they are headed with the disease. Apparently from the chart they have had another 86 new cases today. That is still very low for a country with a population of 25 million.

They should certainly be able to put out that fire.
 
I love how FLORIDA is a hotspot. When you go to Worldometer and do a little math, you can see that SE FLA and Tampa are hot spots...the rest is up a little, but not bad.

Guess who lives in SE FLA and Tampa, and the lifestyle.
 
Hi, Mad,

I have been attempting to calculate the number of days before recovery by comparing the number of new cases against the number of active cases in particular states. Some of the reported active cases appear significantly out of date. For example, New York still reports over 295,000 active cases. And California still reports over 166,000 active cases although their total of new cases for the past 10 days amounts to 58,821 (about a third of that number).

But, surprise, surprise, the numbers reported by Oklahoma appear to be somewhat believable. According to Bing, there have been 14,112 confirmed cases, 389 Deaths and 10,605 recoveries from Covid-19 in Oklahoma.

This resolves to 3118 active cases which corresponds to the 3118 active as reported by Worldometer on July 1. The number of new cases from June 24 to July 1 (8 days) was 3084. The number of new cases from June 23 to July 1 (9 days) was 3379. This would indicate the number of days until recovery is likely about 8 days assuming all 3000 or so recovering were tested and pronounced fully recovered the day of their recovery.

From this, I assume the length one is likely to be sick with Covid-19 is probably about 7 or 8 days. Is it your understanding that about 7 or 8 days on average passes from onset of symptoms to full recovery?
 
New cases

Thanks for the site. It shows detail including where the new cases are. The number you gave earlier was 386. Adding the 87 from yesterday the total comes to 473 not counting any who would have fallen off the list. It would appear that the 3 days previous to today averaged about 82 per day and the averages per day for the 10 days prior to that would be about 30. Just based on that, I would have supposed that the number of active cases would have been in excess of 500 at least. But perhaps they are following existing cases more closely than I would have supposed.
There is lots of Reading on that site.. I have not done.
Also, I would have assumed that there would be some people for whom the disease will last more than 2 weeks. Do you know how long people are typically positive for the disease once they have it? I have had the impression it is about 2 weeks. Is that correct?
That was my long time thinking (2+ months) from the start. now I'm not sure with the Really sick people. I noted this in late May(I recall). but generally 21 days or sooner is my estimate. but the protocol seems 2 negative tests. see this in boxing/mma

Regardless, I would tend to be more concerned about the number of new cases which are currently running in the mid-80s per day. I think that is a better indication of where they are headed with the disease. Apparently from the chart they have had another 86 new cases today. That is still very low for a country with a population of 25 million.

They should certainly be able to put out that fire.
They were under 200 cases (179?) about 2+ weeks ago. I started watching closely at 1500 and they were steadily going down till they hit the 179? mark.
 
Time

From this, I assume the length one is likely to be sick with Covid-19 is probably about 7 or 8 days. Is it your understanding that about 7 or 8 days on average passes from onset of symptoms to full recovery?
yes
With the healthy people. once they know they have the virus. but it can be they have it for days before they know it also.
 
COVID cases linked to Melbourne Black Lives Matter protests



Some there are saying if the protest could happen... why do the rest of have to do this & that. it took the care others were doing to a halt. now the lock downs.
 
Some there are saying if the protest could happen... why do the rest of have to do this & that. it took the care others were doing to a halt. now the lock downs.

In the past month, Australia has had 2 deaths from the coronavirus, 1 on the 24 of June and 1 on the 25 of June. They are likely to kill hundreds with their lock downs.
 
Well

In the past month, Australia has had 2 deaths from the coronavirus, 1 on the 24 of June and 1 on the 25 of June. They are likely to kill hundreds with their lock downs.
With 4 deaths per million kinda hard to criticize them from here.

Do you think if our protests have caused new cases it would be reported, well.
I think not
 
239 Experts With One Big Claim: The Coronavirus Is Airborne

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/07/04/...ne-big-claim-the-coronavirus-is-airborne.html


The W.H.O. has resisted mounting evidence that viral particles floating indoors are infectious, some scientists say. The agency maintains the research is still inconclusive.

By Apoorva Mandavilli
July 4, 2020

The coronavirus is finding new victims worldwide, in bars and restaurants, offices, markets and casinos, giving rise to frightening clusters of infection that increasingly confirm what many scientists have been saying for months: The virus lingers in the air indoors, infecting those nearby.

If airborne transmission is a significant factor in the pandemic, especially in crowded spaces with poor ventilation, the consequences for containment will be significant. Masks may be needed indoors, even in socially-distant settings. Health care workers may need N95 masks that filter out even the smallest respiratory droplets as they care for coronavirus patients.

Ventilation systems in schools, nursing homes, residences and businesses may need to minimize recirculating air and add powerful new filters. Ultraviolet lights may be needed to kill viral particles floating in tiny droplets indoors.

The World Health Organization has long held that the coronavirus is spread primarily by large respiratory droplets that, once expelled by infected people in coughs and sneezes, fall quickly to the floor.

But in an open letter to the W.H.O., 239 scientists in 32 countries have outlined the evidence showing that smaller particles can infect people, and are calling for the agency to revise its recommendations. The researchers plan to publish their letter in a scientific journal next week.

Even in its latest update on the coronavirus, released June 29, the W.H.O. said airborne transmission of the virus is possible only after medical procedures that produce aerosols, or droplets smaller than 5 microns. (A micron is equal to one millionth of a meter.)

Proper ventilation and N95 masks are of concern only in those circumstances, according to the W.H.O. Instead, its infection control guidance, before and during this pandemic, has heavily promoted the importance of handwashing as a primary prevention strategy, even though there is limited evidence for transmission of the virus from surfaces. (The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention now says surfaces are likely to play only a minor role.)

Dr. Benedetta Allegranzi, the W.H.O.’s technical lead on infection control, said the evidence for the virus spreading by air was unconvincing.

“Especially in the last couple of months, we have been stating several times that we consider airborne transmission as possible but certainly not supported by solid or even clear evidence,” she said. “There is a strong debate on this.”

But interviews with nearly 20 scientists — including a dozen W.H.O. consultants and several members of the committee that crafted the guidance — and internal emails paint a picture of an organization that, despite good intentions, is out of step with science.

Whether carried aloft by large droplets that zoom through the air after a sneeze, or by much smaller exhaled droplets that may glide the length of a room, these experts said, the coronavirus is borne through air and can infect people when inhaled.

Most of these experts sympathized with the W.H.O.’s growing portfolio and shrinking budget, and noted the tricky political relationships it has to manage, especially with the United States and China. They praised W.H.O. staff for holding daily briefings and tirelessly answering questions about the pandemic.

But the infection prevention and control committee in particular, experts said, is bound by a rigid and overly medicalized view of scientific evidence, is slow and risk-averse in updating its guidance and allows a few conservative voices to shout down dissent.

“They’ll die defending their view,” said one longstanding W.H.O. consultant, who did not wish to be identified because of her continuing work for the organization. Even its staunchest supporters said the committee should diversify its expertise and relax its criteria for proof, especially in a fast-moving outbreak.

“I do get frustrated about the issues of airflow and sizing of particles, absolutely,” said Mary-Louise McLaws, a committee member and epidemiologist at the University of New South Wales in Sydney.

“If we started revisiting airflow, we would have to be prepared to change a lot of what we do,” she said. “I think it’s a good idea, a very good idea, but it will cause an enormous shudder through the infection control society.”

In early April, a group of 36 experts on air quality and aerosols urged the W.H.O. to consider the growing evidence on airborne transmission of the coronavirus. The agency responded promptly, calling Lidia Morawska, the group’s leader and a longtime W.H.O. consultant, to arrange a meeting.

But the discussion was dominated by a few experts who are staunch supporters of handwashing and felt it must be emphasized over aerosols, according to some participants, and the committee’s advice remained unchanged.

Dr. Morawska and others pointed to several incidents that indicate airborne transmission of the virus, particularly in poorly ventilated and crowded indoor spaces. They said the W.H.O. was making an artificial distinction between tiny aerosols and larger droplets, even though infected people produce both.

“We’ve known since 1946 that coughing and talking generate aerosols,” said Linsey Marr, an expert in airborne transmission of viruses at Virginia Tech.

Scientists have not been able to grow the coronavirus from aerosols in the lab. But that doesn’t mean aerosols are not infective, Dr. Marr said: Most of the samples in those experiments have come from hospital rooms with good air flow that would dilute viral levels.

In most buildings, she said, “the air-exchange rate is usually much lower, allowing virus to accumulate in the air and pose a greater risk.”

The W.H.O. also is relying on a dated definition of airborne transmission, Dr. Marr said. The agency believes an airborne pathogen, like the measles virus, has to be highly infectious and to travel long distances.

People generally “think and talk about airborne transmission profoundly stupidly,” said Bill Hanage, an epidemiologist at the Harvard T.H. Chan School of Public Health.

“We have this notion that airborne transmission means droplets hanging in the air capable of infecting you many hours later, drifting down streets, through letter boxes and finding their way into homes everywhere,” Dr. Hanage said.

Experts all agree that the coronavirus does not behave that way. Dr. Marr and others said the coronavirus seemed to be most infectious when people were in prolonged contact at close range, especially indoors, and even more so in superspreader events — exactly what scientists would expect from aerosol transmission.

Precautionary principle
The W.H.O. has found itself at odds with groups of scientists more than once during this pandemic.

The agency lagged behind most of its member nations in endorsing face coverings for the public. While other organizations, including the C.D.C., have long since acknowledged the importance of transmission by people without symptoms, the W.H.O. still maintains that asymptomatic transmission is rare.

“At the country level, a lot of W.H.O. technical staff are scratching their heads,” said a consultant at a regional office in Southeast Asia, who did not wish to be identified because he was worried about losing his contract. “This is not giving us credibility.”

The consultant recalled that the W.H.O. staff members in his country were the only ones to go without masks after the government there endorsed them.

Many experts said the W.H.O. should embrace what some called a “precautionary principle” and others called “needs and values” — the idea that even without definitive evidence, the agency should assume the worst of the virus, apply common sense and recommend the best protection possible.

“There is no incontrovertible proof that SARS-CoV-2 travels or is transmitted significantly by aerosols, but there is absolutely no evidence that it’s not,” said Dr. Trish Greenhalgh, a primary care doctor at the University of Oxford in Britain.

“So at the moment we have to make a decision in the face of uncertainty, and my goodness, it’s going to be a disastrous decision if we get it wrong,” she said. “So why not just mask up for a few weeks, just in case?”

After all, the W.H.O. seems willing to accept without much evidence the idea that the virus may be transmitted from surfaces, she and other researchers noted, even as other health agencies have stepped back emphasizing this route.

“I agree that fomite transmission is not directly demonstrated for this virus,” Dr. Allegranzi, the W.H.O.’s technical lead on infection control, said, referring to objects that may be infectious. “But it is well known that other coronaviruses and respiratory viruses are transmitted, and demonstrated to be transmitted, by contact with fomite.”

The agency also must consider the needs of all its member nations, including those with limited resources, and make sure its recommendations are tempered by “availability, feasibility, compliance, resource implications,” she said.

Aerosols may play some limited role in spreading the virus, said Dr. Paul Hunter, a member of the infection prevention committee and professor of medicine at the University of East Anglia in Britain.

But if the W.H.O. were to push for rigorous control measures in the absence of proof, hospitals in low- and middle-income countries may be forced to divert scarce resources from other crucial programs.

“That’s the balance that an organization like the W.H.O. has to achieve,” he said. “It’s the easiest thing in the world to say, ‘We’ve got to follow the precautionary principle,’ and ignore the opportunity costs of that.”

In interviews, other scientists criticized this view as paternalistic. “‘We’re not going to say what we really think, because we think you can’t deal with it?’ I don’t think that’s right,” said Don Milton, an aerosol expert at the University of Maryland.

Even cloth masks, if worn by everyone, can significantly reduce transmission, and the W.H.O. should say so clearly, he added.

Several experts criticized the W.H.O.’s messaging throughout the pandemic, saying the staff seems to prize scientific perspective over clarity.

“What you say is designed to help people understand the nature of a public health problem,” said Dr. William Aldis, a longtime W.H.O. collaborator based in Thailand. “That’s different than just scientifically describing a disease or a virus.”

The W.H.O. tends to describe “an absence of evidence as evidence of absence,” Dr. Aldis added. In April, for example, the W.H.O. said, “There is currently no evidence that people who have recovered from Covid-19 and have antibodies are protected from a second infection.”

The statement was intended to indicate uncertainty, but the phrasing stoked unease among the public and earned rebukes from several experts and journalists. The W.H.O. later walked back its comments.

In a less public instance, the W.H.O. said there was “no evidence to suggest” that people with H.I.V. were at increased risk from the coronavirus. After Joseph Amon, the director of global health at Drexel University in Philadelphia who has sat on many agency committees, pointed out that the phrasing was misleading, the W.H.O. changed it to say the level of risk was “unknown.”

But W.H.O. staff and some members said the critics did not give its committees enough credit.

“Those that may have been frustrated may not be cognizant of how W.H.O. expert committees work, and they work slowly and deliberately,” Dr. McLaws said.

Dr. Soumya Swaminathan, the W.H.O.’s chief scientist, said agency staff members were trying to evaluate new scientific evidence as fast as possible, but without sacrificing the quality of their review. She added that the agency will try to broaden the committees’ expertise and communications to make sure everyone is heard.

“We take it seriously when journalists or scientists or anyone challenges us and say we can do better than this,” she said. “We definitely want to do better.”
 
Thanks for the Times article by Apoorva Mandavilli.

The first thing to note is that this is a Times article by Apoorva Mandavilli. Mandavilli is a journalist and as is typical for such articles, It avoids saying that the evidence shows that airborne transmission is a significant factor since it doesn’t. Rather it says that if airborne transmission is a significant factor, the consequences may be significant.

The article notes that the WHO has long held that the coronavirus is spread primarily by large respiratory droplets that, once expelled by infected people in coughs and sneezes, fall quickly to the floor. However, according to the article, 239 scientists in 32 countries have outlined the evidence in an open letter to the WHO showing that smaller particles (which can hang in the air for extended periods) can infect people, and are calling for the agency to revise its recommendations. The researchers plan to publish their letter in a scientific journal next week.

However, later in the article, it essentially admits that evidence of this is in short supply.

It quotes Dr. Benedetta Allegranzi, the WHO’s technical lead on infection control, who has said the evidence for the virus spreading by air was unconvincing: “Especially in the last couple of months, we have been stating several times that we consider airborne transmission as possible but certainly not supported by solid or even clear evidence,” she said. “There is a strong debate on this.”

In opposition, there are voices who complain that the “infection prevention and control committee in particular…is bound by a rigid and overly medicalized view of scientific evidence, is slow and risk-averse in updating its guidance and allows a few conservative voices to shout down dissent.

And maybe they have a point.

Eventually, we get to the actual existing evidence which, as the ‘WHO maintains, is inconclusive:

Many experts said the W.H.O. should embrace what some called a “precautionary principle” and others called “needs and values” — the idea that even without definitive evidence, the agency should assume the worst of the virus, apply common sense and recommend the best protection possible.

“There is no incontrovertible proof that SARS-CoV-2 travels or is transmitted significantly by aerosols, but there is absolutely no evidence that it’s not,” said Dr. Trish Greenhalgh, a primary care doctor at the University of Oxford in Britain.

“So at the moment we have to make a decision in the face of uncertainty, and my goodness, it’s going to be a disastrous decision if we get it wrong,” she said. “So why not just mask up for a few weeks, just in case?”

But proving a positive and proving a negative are two different things. As the article earlier pointed out, “Scientists have not been able to grow the coronavirus from aerosols in the lab.” And there are costs associated with the cautionary approach.

In my opinion, it is a balancing act, a risk vs reward situation. There is little cost in masking up and that most certainly ought to be done in the interest of caution. Shutting down the economy or refusing to reopen while telling people that they need to continue to stay home another month or two is another matter entirely. The cost for that is too great. I think that people need to put on a mask and get back to work.
 
Airborne

We can't be at all surprised the virus is airborne. it's only to what degree. we seen tests on this months ago. is that story bad news ? is the WHO wrong mostly ?

I think that people need to put on a mask and get back to work.

Humans are going to do what humans have to do.
 
back here

Seems to me we need to concentrate on heating and air conditioning systems that pump outside air into buildings to mitigate against the spread.
This is always preferred. yet the bean counters. when it's recommended. so

Years ago I lived with a friend for about 2 years. for a experiment twice when we got a bug/flu we tried HARD not to pass it. both times it worked, while living in the same house. with HVAC on daily,3000 sq ft home. so we did have room to stay out of our own faces a bit yet not totally. he or I would open a outside door when we got close to each other etc. it was as much fun one could have with sickness.

I think this virus is just very easy to pass. I wonder if it has a high/higher reproducing rate, than others. I'm no expert.
Mad, I tried hard, but I failed to find a correlation that could stand up. As a result, I am now convinced that the increase in new cases in several southern and western states is not significantly impacted by outside gatherings.
Or do the northerners have more herd than southerners ?
 
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